Take away the part about whether it's a good line or not.
Yeah, or just, what's going to be left afterwards, that's what I want to take away. It's like we'd have an easier time painting with water on chalkboards, because that is going to go away.

Well, that's like, chimpanzees apparently really like painting? But they don't like paintings.
Yeah! [Laughter]

So as soon as they're done putting paint down on the paper, they're done. They don't want to look at it any more.
It's like a kid really likes to ride bikes but he doesn't like to look at videos of him riding bikes.

Right! Exactly.
So those are two very different activities. But looking at a painting is a lot like making a painting.

Right, because your eye travels through it.
Yeah — again, we're looking at motion and something going on in the brain.

I think all art is sequential, even if you're looking at a painting.
Oh, yeah. There's no fixed sequence, but it is sequential. So this is the kind of stuff I'm interested in and from teaching, I've had this magic thing happen to me where I get to teach, with just having my hippie BA, and it is a hippie BA. Although I have to say that I was at college, when I was getting my hippie BA, that this whole thing started.

Yeah, my teacher, Marilyn Fraska at Evergreen State College, a hippie school — it was an experimental college, I went there in '74. And the way they did it was, a lot more like elementary school where you only had one class, not a whole bunch of different ones. You took one class and one group of students that you pretty much stayed with. . . . So I started working with this teacher Marilyn, and I studied with her for two years and she's the one who asked that question, "What is an image?" And when studying with her, her whole idea was that the form was not as important as understanding what an image was. And she really convinced us through our practice together, that there was not that much difference between writing and drawing.

Where you drawing comics by then?
I started doing comics when I was working with her, and at the same time, at our college newspaper, Matt Groening was the editor. And he published this thing when he took it over, saying he would print anything anyone submitted. I didn't know the guy, but I went up and kinda spied on him — now we're really good friends, this was the beginning of our friendship — and I went up and spied on him up in the newspaper office, it had these big glass walls and I could watch. It was a hippie school, right? And he was wearing slacks and like, he had buttons on his shirt, and he had shoes that had, like, you know, laces, and I thought, "This is some kooky straight dude." What I didn't realize was that he was so hip and hated hippies, and his whole thing was to do every anti-hippie thing he could do, just to drive the hippies nuts. Wwhich is so him. He lives to just challenge, you know?

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